Danny Bauer on Self-Mentorship, AI Coaching, and Leading Without Permission

In this episode of The Eduleadership Show, Danny Bauer of Better Leaders Better Schools explains self-mentorship: school leaders owning their growth instead of waiting for permission to grow. We discuss:

• How a principal named Cory had 910 conversations with Digital Danny, Danny's AI coaching tool, in five months, and gave self-mentorship its name

• The four jobs Digital Danny does for school leaders: landing high-stakes communication, reframing a problem from multiple perspectives, applying coaching tools, and challenging the story you tell yourself

• Why cutting Digital Danny's training down to those four jobs made its answers 10 times better

• How to notice the internal story driving your reactions without getting pulled along by it

• What separates "ruckus makers" from "play-it-safe principals," and why permission-based professional development keeps leaders stuck

• What changes for leaders when they take charge of their own growth, at work and at home

Links:

Learn about Digital Danny at MyPrincipalCoach.com

Leave Danny a voice note at TalkWithDanny.com

Join a Better Leaders Better Schools mastermind

Listen to the Better Leaders Better Schools podcast

Full Transcript:

Justin Baeder:

Welcome everyone to the Eduleadership Show. I'm your host Justin Baeder and I'm honored to welcome to the program my longtime friend and colleague Danny Bauer. Danny, welcome to the Eduleadership Show.

Danny Bauer:

Justin, it's always a pleasure to speak with you. So thanks for inviting me here.

Justin Baeder:

Thanks for being here. I've been a follower and a fan of your work for many years. Tell us just a little bit about who you are and what you do for anyone in our audience who doesn't know.

Danny Bauer:

I like to tell a story where I'm waiting for my friend Lindsay to pick me up for high school, right? And I'm a sophomore and I'm on my way to a chemistry class. Mr. Rogers is the teacher. Now the thing about Lindsay, she's the last of three girls and she's absolutely a princess. Time is meaningless to this human being, right? It does not exist. And so even though high school begins at 8 a.m., maybe. Maybe it begins at 8 AM for Lindsay and she's my ride. I don't want to walk. I don't want to ride my bike. So anyways, I'm ready. I'm ready 10 to 8 for her to pick me up. I look through the bay window. No, Lindsay. It becomes probably about 7 57 58. I'm getting anxious even though I know she'll be late. I leave my house. I start walking down Anderson Drive thinking that I can manifest her toward me. This does not work either. There's no Lindsay in sight. About 8 0 5 a.m. I'm already at the park, which is, you know, nearly half a mile from my house. She's barreling down the street. I hear Nine Inch Nails like blaring from the windows and she picks me up. We get to high school, knock on Mr. Rogers' door. It's locked. He would do that if students were late. And I'm in trouble, Justin, because I've been late quite a bit since Lindsay's my ride, and I prefer not to walk or ride my bike. And I think I'm about to get suspended. I've been late tardy to class too many times. And Mr. Rogers opens the door. He says, Mr. Bauer, what is it this time? And I tell him, Justin, this time, Mr. Rogers, it's different. You see on my way to school, I walked past a house full of Girl Scouts and this house was on fire. Now, Mr. Rogers, what would you do in this moment? He looked at me and I looked at him. And of course, I let him know. Right. I ran into that house like a hero and I saved the entire Girl Scout troop. Right. And they were all OK. And I produced a Do-si-dos cookie for Mr. Rogers. And I don't know if it was the very made up story that entertained him or the very real cookie that I handed my teacher. But I was scot free that day. And I learned that it pays to tell good stories and I've been telling stories ever since.

Justin Baeder:

And professionally, you have served as a school administrator and for many years now, you have coached school administrators. Take us into that recent journey at Better Leaders, Better Schools.

Danny Bauer:

Yeah, right. You know, classroom educator for decades, school administrator for a while, had every hat to from assistant principal up to central office, worked for the AVID program as a district coordinator. And then somewhere along that journey, you know, I started a podcast, Better Leaders, Better Schools. I figured, listen, I know I have leadership gaps. And if I have conversations with people smarter than me like you, Justin, and learn from your stories of success and failure and took action on at least one idea, then I would close those leadership gaps. And fast forward just over a decade and that show has definitely changed my life and I'm really very humbled and grateful for the journey that I've been on.

Justin Baeder:

Yeah, and so you work through the Better Leaders Mastermind groups and other programs to support school leaders around the world.

Danny Bauer:

Yeah, that's right.

Justin Baeder:

Yeah. Well, we're here today to talk about a concept that I believe you've coined, right? This is an original idea that you're calling self-mentorship. Take us into that if you would.

Danny Bauer:

Yeah, so you know, the interesting thing there, Justin, a bit of a story, too. So I created this tool called Digital Danny. Maybe we talk about it. Maybe we don't. But I was about to shut it down. And Digital Danny is like my clone trained on 10 years of podcast conversations, masterminds, one on one coaching, et cetera. And I was about to shut it down. But before I did, I said, Let me look at who's actually using it and how they're using it. It could be good or bad, but I've always just kind of followed my energy and interests. I'm not a really great data-driven decision maker, which is interesting. And so luckily, I did decide to kind of dig in and see what's going on. And I saw one user jump out, Cory. He's a client, and Digital Danny was available to clients for about a year. For making it public. And the thing that was wild, Justin, was that Cory used him in five months, 910 conversations, right? And I was blown away because I was about to pull the plug. So I have a quick 15, 20 minute conversation with Cory just saying like, know, what do you love about it? What's what's irritating that I can make better? What are sort of the jobs to be done that you hire it for? And how might you describe it to a superintendent if that superintendent was going to pay for it for you? And when he answered that question, he said something that was really interesting. He said, you know, I'm this I'm this go getter leader. I don't take no for an answer. I own my leadership growth. And it's kind of like you're you've created this tool that's a guide here that helps me self-mentor. And in that moment, right, like. The fireworks went off for me, and I really love thinking about language and how we describe things. And I thought, my gosh, I think Cory just named what I've been doing for the last decade. I haven't had words for this. I've talked about ruckus makers, ruckus makers do school different. That's a point of view. That's not really a category. And there it was, self-mentorship. Because if you remember the intro origin story that I shared for me, I had leadership gaps. I wanted to close them. And the way I decided to do that was to start a podcast, talk to great people like you and others. That's the path of self-mentorship, right? You carve it out, you create it on your own. And there you have it. So I now know the flag that I'm waving and I'm here to tell everybody about it.

Justin Baeder:

Well, thanks to Cory for the name then. It's interesting because, you know, in I think both of our cases, you know, we're not the boss of anybody, right? No one has to, you know, listen to anything either of us says on a podcast or in a book or in an article. There is a self-directedness to it. And it sounds like what you've done with the Digital Danny tool is to take the kinds of things you would say, the kinds of advice, but also maybe the ways of coaching people, what do you see as what's encoded there that Cory was able to access, know, knowing that it's trained on you, but it's different from you. And it's, you know, it's not Cory's boss, it's not Cory's, you know, actual mentor making him do anything, but it's serving some sort of useful role there. What do you see that as being?

Danny Bauer:

For me, it's like, you know, for those leaders that have a very clear picture of where they want to go, but maybe the path is a bit fuzzy or they clearly identify the obstacles on the path and that's frustrating and they want to move faster and get around those obstacles. So I think that's that's a big piece, like at a very, very high level. Specifically, if we come down to the dirt from the clouds, Cory started using Digital Danny just with communication, right? Non renewals, angry parent emails, high stakes conversations that he needed to land. And he, you know, just having a conversation back and forth, not like, hey, just write this for me. But like, here's the approach type of thing and help me think through it from multiple perspectives. Hey, why is this parent maybe even right? You know, and how do I affirm that? And still landed in a way where the teacher feels supported, even though we kind of know the teacher was wrong, right? These are tough things to navigate. It's a high wire for principals. So that was job one. And then the other three is really like what I do as a coach. It's zooming out. So being able to kind of reframe how we're seeing things in multiple perspectives. It's about applying tools. I've invented way too many tools to even discuss. And what's funny is clients are sometimes like, what was that tool? What do I use it for? Well, now they could just be having a conversation and Digital Danny says, here's the tool that's perfect for this. And then also challenging the story. The story that we often tell ourselves is not the accurate one or the most helpful one. And so that's another job. We discovered as well.

Justin Baeder:

Interesting. So a couple of practical details that I wanted to ask about, and then let's definitely come back to some of those use cases. So are people hearing a voice that is a clone of your voice, like your actual voice?

Danny Bauer:

So if they want to, right, and people either love that or they think it's like the craziest, weirdest, most eerie thing ever and they hate it, you know. So I did, I did read, you know, a lot of, a lot of text and it cloned my voice. So if you like that, right, and especially if you're a podcast listener, you might love that. I know one of my coaches, Gene Park, he's like audio everything. If he can talk it out, that's way better than writing. But like any other chat tool, if you want to do text based stuff, you could do that as well.

Justin Baeder:

How does your dog like it? I think that's the real important question.

Danny Bauer:

You know, Alba, I think she loves it. My mom loves it too. You know, she was asking questions though about like my history and I'm like, mom, it's not trained on my childhood, okay?

Justin Baeder:

That's going to be my second question there. You said you trained it on your podcast, coaching conversation, so it has a sense of the kind of things you would say. And then does it retrieve facts from a list, or what's it drawing on?

Danny Bauer:

Yeah, so I have this spreadsheet. It's pretty nerdy and it has like hundreds of lines of data and essentially the loop that's really fun. It's me coaching a human being, right? That turns into a transcript that I then use AI to help categorize and tag and all of that kind of stuff. Then that work gets turned into a markdown file, right? Which trains my AI, Digital Danny. That ultimately helps a human. So that human AI AI human loop is fascinating. But the other interesting thing about that, the first version that Cory used, mean, honestly, was a very average tool. And he got 910 conversations with it. Then my thinking's evolved as yours does as well. And I had the idea, if I constrain what Digital Danny can do, because he was plugged into all my content and whatever, like just a lot of stuff. I actually hit a limit of five million words of context. Can you imagine that? Me, five million words. I need to shut up, I think, right? And instead of having all that context, we went into the four jobs to be done and I deleted everything else, started re-uploading actually. And so anyways, his responses got 10x better when I told Cory that Danny had been trained anew and to give him another run, he had 1,000 conversations in two weeks. So the leadership lesson there is like, don't try to be everything to everyone, Constraints are a beautiful thing. And when you're really clear on what you do very well, that actually usually produces a better outcome. The other interesting thing, unlike other chats, LLMs, AIs, Digital Danny's not going to just make stuff. Have you ever put something right into a tool and it's like, yeah, 13% of principles, blah, blah. And I said, wait, did you make that up? And the A is like, you caught me. I totally did. So yeah, Digital Danny literally is only trained on the stuff that I've uploaded to him, which is real coaching, real podcast, real book content. And when you ask something he doesn't know, he goes, that's out of my wheelhouse. Like he literally says that. And to try to rephrase it. Then that's good. That's a signal to me. I could go and create content that answers that question. Or you you just leave it as a, you got stumped.

Justin Baeder:

Being willing to say no is important for an AI coach as well as human coach.

Danny Bauer:

I think so,

Justin Baeder:

I don't know. Yeah. Well, let's talk a little bit more about that voice that you mentioned earlier that sometimes people have an internal voice that's telling them something, telling them a story that is unhelpful. And certainly that's the value of talking to someone else. That's the value of getting you know, someone else's perspective that, maybe the way I'm framing this in my own mind is not the most helpful. What do you think is going on there for leaders who are feeling stuck or getting the wrong message from that internal voice?

Danny Bauer:

I think that's natural, right? And maybe, you know, it has to do with like lizard brains and eons of evolution, but it's probably rooted in some sort of like fear and survival and that kind of thing. I mean, I know all the time I'm like, you know, is Justin going to invite me back? Is this like the dumbest conversation ever? Right. Like, you know, that just happens. And so you I think what I've learned over the years is to, you know, there's a story going on there. I'm noting it. And if I watch it for a second, I also realize it disappears. Right. But if I grab it or if it acts like a hook and I'm a fish and I bite it, now I'm getting pulled along, right, almost unconsciously. And this story is actually driving all my actions. And that's obviously super unhelpful. If I thought you didn't, you know, didn't really care about what I was saying and I'd be spiraling out, right, in this conversation. So I think that happens all the time in nanoseconds, whether you're aware of it or not, totally natural. But the difference between sort of maybe a ruckus maker and play-it-safe principal, a ruckus maker is not going to attach to that. They're going to watch it dissipate. And that play-it-safe principals scared leader is going to grab it and be dragged around by their emotions almost.

Justin Baeder:

Let's talk about that idea of a ruckus maker because you've, I think, defined this category for quite some time now. What does it mean to be a ruckus maker rather than a play-it-safe principal?

Danny Bauer:

For me, I think play-it-safe principals are very invested in protecting the way things have always been. And when I say that, that doesn't mean, you know, over the years we haven't created things that are worth it. Right. But what it does mean is that like a face value, you don't necessarily accept it. You investigate and make decisions along the way for yourself. That's just like self-mentorship. I think play-it-safe principal. You know, they also they do get better, but when they get better, it's incremental improvement. And it's usually being told what the next step is, right? Turn to page 74, I've got a problem with the union, here's how I navigate it, right? So it's just reproducing more of the same, getting the same results. I like to say that ruckus makers are visitors from the future showing us how education can one day be. And there's no playbook for that, right? So they have to... Really lean into leadership and innovation and be smart about it as well. But it's taking ownership of the path. And when they figure it out, I think that leads to exponential improvement. If I further defined, I think ruckus makers do self-mentorship where play-it-safe principals except what I would call permission based development, which is never gonna satisfy a ruckus maker.

Justin Baeder:

And what does it mean to need permission or to seek permission for one's own growth? What do you see happening in leaders who feel like they need that permission?

Danny Bauer:

I mean, you know, you've coached more leaders than you can count at this point. I've got a healthy roster of leaders I've supported over the years too. And it's very clear ones that figured out for themselves, right, and are gonna get results. And those that just kind of wait, you know, it's like permission based, it's sort of inherent in the name. You're just you're waiting for permission. And I've just, I've never been personally, right? That's not in my DNA, you know? For better or worse, I see somebody giving a keynote or doing a comedy set or whatever, and I think, I can do that. I could probably do it better too. And I don't know if that's a bit of ego as well, but I'm like, and though, what type of like materials and courses and mentors and et cetera do I need to surround myself with so I can get to a level where I actually do perform at a high level, you know? And produce that result. So, ah, it's about waiting and not waiting. That simple.

Justin Baeder:

I think it is natural to default to kind of doing what you're told to on professional development simply because you're told to do so much. In most cases, you don't have free time as a school leader that you need to somehow fill. You have the opposite problem of more on your plate than you can deal with. There's lots of professional development to go to. Your district is keeping you busy. You're getting flyers from your state principals association. So even if you are selective about the things that other people kind of really pushed you to do, it doesn't seem like there's a lot of time to kind of chart your own course and to choose what's going to make the most sense for you. In your experience working with lots of leaders who are probably more comfortable than average doing that, What tends to happen when people give themselves permission to be a little bit more self-directed and not wait for permission? What kind of opens up or unlocks when they do that?

Danny Bauer:

I see just like overall satisfaction honestly with life and work, you know? And I humbly and like very, with a lot of gratitude can share stories of leaders who joined to become professionally better, but then maybe became a better dad or a better husband as well. And I think that's just because they're thinking about... Life in a very holistic way and not dividing it all apart either. And when I consider the frameworks that I use working with school leaders, they all begin with the individual, right? And then usually sort of there's a layer of culture in your team. And then there's the layer of the campus and the systems. But it always starts with you. And that's very intentional. So I think, you know, I don't know if it sounds hokey, but like they're just enjoying life better. You know, I had a guy, Justin, recently write me as well. He's a high performing principal. Who's I think gonna get the head of like school sort of promotion and be over the upper and the middle. But he wrote me and he was like, hey, I no longer see putting in more hours as the path to the outcomes I want, right? He's got two little ones at home. I just, think, you you gotta have a lot of courage, but a lot of clarity to be able to say something like that. And you have to be, you know, they say work smarter, right? Not harder. Like you really have to understand, be able to prioritize. And it's scary, but say no, you know, say no to really good things too, in order to get the kind of results that you want. But in the end, you know, you're happier for it. So yeah, I mean, I think I'm just trying to help people. Enjoy this moment of life that they have, right? It's short. And I just put a wrapper of school leadership over it, but we're actually doing a wildly internal game that we're playing.

Justin Baeder:

Yeah. Well, I know you mentioned that for a long time, this was kind of a client exclusive, kind of an internal project that people were testing out, but you have made Digital Danny available more broadly now. Tell us about that.

Danny Bauer:

Yeah, so thanks Justin. Within the last month, you know, we've started to say, hey, if you'd like to check them out. So there's two doors, you know, you could try it for 90 days if you want, or you can do it for the year. But everything you need to learn about Digital Danny is pretty much at MyPrincipalCoach.com. It's just one page explaining what Digital Danny is about. But if you're not sort of in my world, like listen to the Better Leaders Better Schools podcast, visit that website and there's plenty of... Places to interact. The other thing too is if you have a question, I have a fun new other project, Justin, it's called TalkWithDanny.com. So if you went there, you could literally just leave a voice note. And when I have something thoughtful to say, I'll reply to that. But basically, any question that I could support you with, would love to do so. Now me, Human Danny, I get tired. I'm also stupid and forget stuff. I do evolve with you. But Digital Danny, you know, He's superior in that he never forgets and he's always available right 11 17 p.m. And you have a teacher quit. You don't know what to do. He's there. I'm not, but he is.

Justin Baeder:

Doesn't need sleep, doesn't need caffeine.

Danny Bauer:

Yeah, no caffeine.

Justin Baeder:

Good deal, good deal. And if people do want to have a more synchronous experience, tell us about the mastermind. So those have been going for many years now. I know they don't always have openings because people tend to stay in them, but tell us a little bit about the mastermind world because I know that's familiar to some, but not all.

Danny Bauer:

It's wild, know, that's been around almost 10 years too. But that's that is a synchronous experience. And I like to say like the mastermind is really that top level self-mentorship experience and Digital Danny helps keep you sharp. But basically there's there's six cohorts Monday through Wednesday at different times. And you sort of have a home base where you would go. Got a problem practice, bring it up and then imagine having a very trusted board of advisors, which is why people stick around, being able to ask you questions, give you feedback, you know, help you dig deeper and you are going to approach a problem one way. Now you have all this experience and leadership, you know, just supporting you and you're way better. That obviously feels good for you as the individual. But when you get to hear how Justin thinks, right, and like peek inside his brain, That is like, that is where the real value is. So just seeing how other leaders sort of like process their problems and work through it. Yeah, and it's a weekly experience. I think there's six breaks throughout the year, six different cohorts. You if you're busy one week, you could pop in one of the others. So it's very flexible. You know, just the way that we love supporting school leaders. So that one, if you go to betterleadersbetterschools.com/mastermind. You could find out more, but again, you could always ask me questions at TalkWithDanny.com. Super easy.

Justin Baeder:

Well, Danny, thank you so much for your time today. Great to catch up a little bit and reconnect and hear what you've been up to and the great ways that you're supporting school leaders. So thanks so much.

Danny Bauer:

I appreciate you so much. You've been such a great advocate and support, you know, behind the scenes and in front of the scenes as well over the years. And so just thank you, thank you, thank you, Justin.

Justin Baeder:

Thank you, Danny. Talk to you soon.